Not That One, This One!

Just avoided a big "oops" in Buzz: Tomb Raiders (Bible stories about resurrections). It's the story of Saul and the witch of Endor from 1 Samuel 28. And, yes, I had approved it earlier in the Scope and Sequence without reading the full text. Upon reading the story, though, I'm cutting it now. We won't include it because it'll raise questions that aren't appropriate for fifth- and sixth-graders to grapple with.

Basically, the story goes like this: God wasn't speaking to Saul, so Saul went to a medium and had her "raise" Samuel. Which she did. And Samuel talked to Saul about why God wasn't speaking to him.

Yikes! What do you do with a story like that with kids? Yes, it's in the Bible. But how can we reconcile that the powers of darkness worked and then Samuel spoke on God's behalf? Well, as an adult, I'm confused!

So it's not a story we'd choose to cover with kids in any of our curriculum. But that brings up a question: What are the filters you use in your children's ministry for which Bible stories you will and won't use with kids of different ages?

Comments

[Henry Zonio]

I'm really having trouble with this one, Christine.

"We won't include it because it'll raise questions that aren't appropriate for fifth- and sixth-graders to grapple with."

What kinds of questions are you thinking wouldn't be appropriate for this age group? Kids in this age group are engaging in sexual behaviours, watching extreme violence on TV, games and movies, and exposed to everything the internet has available. Why is it not "appropriate" for them to grapple with issues surrounding the sovereignty of God and the importance of doing things God's way?

I guess I see this story not as an example where the "powers of darkness worked." Evil only has "power" because God allows it. God used that supposed evil moment to speak to Saul in a very profound way. Yes, this is a hard story with hard issues. Does that mean we shy away from it and other stories similar to it? I don't think so... especially at the grade 5 and 6 level.

There are way more confusing issues that these kids deal with every day. Why not engage their budding theological minds and help them understand that the Bible is chock full of "blue parakeets" to steal from Scot McKnight. I think we do these kids a disservice by only showing them the "easy stuff." What better time to give them an opportunity to connect with the Holy Spirit and learn learn from Him.

[Larry Shallenberer]

I think the story doesn't fit because it's not a resurrection story.

V 13 states that it was Samuel's spirit that was summoned. (as opposed to a bodily resurrection).

Your question: "But how can we reconcile that the powers of darkness worked and then Samuel spoke on God's behalf?"

It is confusing. But I think it's a motif that shows up a few times in Scripture...

Balaam the Sorcerer is hired to curse Israel, but God forces the occultist to bless the nation.

There's the Witch of Endor-- God allowed her to conjure Samuel's spirit, but ultimately Samuel gets to prophesy against a rebellious Saul one more time.

God speaks into the Magi's (pagan priests)astrological and beliefs to testify about Jesus with the star.

I think God is demonstrating his power over everything, and even spiritual forces that are opposed to him-- even they must submit to his will.

I think the passage is confusing, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it with fifth Graders. The tension would spark conversation.

[Henry Zonio]

I agree that it doesn't fit with resurrections stories, but I do think the story would spark some great conversation with fifth graders.

[Chris Yount Jones]

Great insights, you guys.

So I'm dealing with two issues here. One is my perspective as a parent; the other is my perspective in serving multiple churches.
First of all, as a parent I don't want my preteen child learning about mediums at church. I've got pretty strong filters on that one. (My kids think I'm crazy that I won't let them watch Wizards of Waverly Place, and they're 13 and 15.) So that's a personal issue.

On the filter of serving the church, I have less freedom than you two do. You know the kids in your ministry--their maturity, their cognitive skills, their faith. You know the parents of these kids--their appetite for controversy, their reactions to things you've taught before. I, on the other hand, am working with a team to create Buzz--a Sunday school resource for literally thousands and thousands of churches from multiple denominations. In service to them, I need to move with caution.

So what filters do I use? (and they're different from you guys at a church perhaps) I would say that I need to consider what's faith-growth-producing, what's age-appropriate, what's acceptable to our customers, and what fits the resource.

Another thing that may help with understanding my tight filter on this one: For the 30-plus years that I've been a Christian, there are only a few times that I pass a medium/psychic's place of business that I don't pray that God would bind the evil spirits at work there. So I've got real issues about the occult getting very much daylight in the church.

[Anthony Prince]

Christine,
I'm usually a big fan, but I have to say this caught me off guard.

Does this also mean that we should keep away from the story of Balaam because God communicates through a donkey?

I'm not sure your assessment that 5th and 6th graders aren't ready to grapple with this text is accurate. I think it's up to educators and parents to help our kids navigate stories like this in scripture. If we avoid them, we're doing our kids a disservice.

I do appreciate your honesty on this subject. It's not easy to put yourself out there like this.

[Anthony Prince]

I do agree, however, that this is not a "Tomb Raider" story because there is no physical resurrection in this text.

Thanks, Larry, for pointing that one out!

[Chris Yount Jones]

Anthony,
Interesting that you used the donkey. In my personal grappling with this story, I thought "well if God can use a mule, he could use a medium" I suppose. No, we wouldn't stay away from the story of Balaam and the donkey.

I'm still grappling with this story and the perspectives on a personal level.

We make decisions all the time on what to include and what not to include. Usually we're pretty gutsy, but not with this one. We also made the decision not to cover the story of the concubine who's brutally raped throughout the night, dies at the doorstep in the morning, and the man cuts her up into 12 pieces and sends her to the 12 tribes to start a war (from Judges). This was for third- and fourth-graders. Using the same filters, we didn't feel it was the best story for kids that age.

[Larry Shallenberer]

Chris,

A publishing house absolutely has to have a different filters set of filters than an individual congregation. No doubt. I wouldn't present the story you referenced from Judges earlier-- as a publisher or an individual CM.

Filters... filters...

1) Does the story advance the over all plot of the Bible? Will it help the children understand the history of salvation?

2) Is it (reasonably)easy to communicate God's character in the story?

... that's incomplete but a start.

I think I only needed to teach the story of Saul and the witch once in twelve years at Grace. I had a summer mid-week elective for Harry Potter fans. We read the books together and then worked through scripture to understand God's perspective on witchcraft, then to learn how to discern between literary and actual magic. But generally, no... this isn't a "must teach" lesson.

I do remember reading the story independently as a kid and being scared to death.

[Lisa Burney]

Your careful consideration and the scholarly discussion is comforting to me as a Children's Minister filtering curriculum choices for our children.
I teach a weekly 5th &6th graders' Bible Study and find that they are all over the map in cognitive development. Some are still literal thinkers uncomfortable with questions that challenge their beliefs. Others can absolutely blow me over with their ability to see beyond the literal and think critically using the filter of their own belief system. These same kids can apply Bible truths, offering insights that enlighten their humble teachers.
As a curriculum writer, I need you to bridge the span and provide food for thought that helps our teachers reaches both extremes.

I was wondering if Bible passages like that could be offered up as optional text for those 5th & 6th graders who are ready for more perplexing Bible texts.

[Steve]

Interesting thoughts on this. I learned about witchcraft and mediums from the church which was much better than learning it by going to Barnes and Noble or friends at school. I learned that it was not acceptable and the story of Saul and the witch of Endor was one of the stories used as an example.

This story also shows that God has complete authority over everything. Just like in Exodus each of the plagues shows God's authority over a different Egyptian god.

It doesn't fit into the resurrection theme but it is a good story to open 5th and 6th graders eyes to truths about God.

[Henry Zonio]

I do understand the filters you have to use as a publisher of curriculum that is used by a wide audience.

I think what really caught me off guard was the comment that discussing this story was "inappropriate" for grade 5/6.

I also get the concern about witchcraft and mediums and the occult.

The story definitely does not fit into the theme of the unit, but I'm sure all you brilliant curriculum writers would be able to use that story within a different unit that fits and be able to tell the story to a larger audience... Hey, if you are able to take the story of Pentecost (in VBS curriculums) and tell it in a way that, I thought, was balanced and useable in a variety of contexts, I'm sure a story like this one with Saul could be told that would fit a broader audience.

Anyway, I'm not advocating the keeping of the story in the unit. I am only pushing back because, to me (and I could be completely wrong), it felt like fear played a role in the decision and that surprised me. Maybe this story becomes part of a special stand-alone optional unit for something that helps grade 5/6 kids grapple with things like horoscopes, ouija boards, mediums/psychics, fortune telling... Stuff like that is all around them and portrayed as harmless fun... pointing to God as our source rather than all this other stuff which is simply a facade of power...

Anyway, my 2 cents.

As for filters, I like what Larry has. I might add "Does the story pique further exploration into the character of God? Does it facilitate that exploration happening communally as well as individually?"

[Chris Yount Jones]

Wow! I love being accountable to a greater audience of children's ministers! Thank you!

I will seriously consider this as a great topic for our Grapple preteen curriculum. I shouldn't have been so adamant that it wouldn't belong in ANY Group curriculum. We need to consider it for a resource that provides the exact grappling time required to pull out God's truth from the passage. Yes! Our team is good at that!

For now, we'll leave it out of this quarter of Buzz (great point that it really doesn't fit the theme anyway).

Isn't it true that our own fears, perspectives, views are the filter with which we make decisions? I'm thankful you've challenged me!

[Larry Shallenberer]

btw: I just order one of the Buzz kits because I'm do darned curious.

[Chris Yount Jones]

Yea! And there wasn't even method to my madness. I think you'll love it--right up your alley of creativity!